| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
585
   |
Posted - 2013.02.05 18:45:00 -
[1] - Quote
u say ur all for attacking the supply lines, but how is that meant to happen when every miner and ratter can see any attack coming well ahead of time?
the PvE players flee and either cloak or sit in a POS the moment an unkown enters local. what is the attacker meant to do then? just leave and allow the PvE players to continue making ridiculous amounts of isk without any risk at all? no. Instead he safes up and cloaks. either afk or not, he stays in system to prevent the core money making systems of an alliance from working.
afk cloaking IS how u attack an enemies supply lines.
as for:
Quote:well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day
What are the reasons?
its not the job of other ppl to constantly repeat this thread over and over again. u should be able to use the search function or read other threads on the same subject, especially seeing how many there are and the fact that u've even posted IN one... |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
587
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:This system has many draw backs...
You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it
IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.
IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.
If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.
i think ur the one not reading my friend.
its just as unreasonable that a PvE player can operate alone and with impunity in what is meant to be the most dangerous space in the game. But it is so safe in fact, that it is often referred to as being safer than low sec, and sometimes even hi-sec. true the cloaker has no risk. but neither does the PvE player. hence the balance. no isk is made or lost on either side. note- u have not lost isk, u just have not made any.
ur system would remove the cloakers defence, but it would not remove the PvE player from the POS. so the cloaker would be exposed to PvP gangs but the PvE player would not. The cloaker is routed and the PvE player continues to make money, knowing that he can safe up for as long as he wants, but the cloaker must eventually leave or be destroyed.
so ur idea is most definitely imbalanced |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
587
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:23:00 -
[3] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:Trespasser wrote:This system has many draw backs...
You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it
IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around.
IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage.
If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability. Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk. You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides. It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found. The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one. And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3
they are quite trivial costs. and if the cloaker is forced to leave, why isnt there a way to force the PvE player to leave?
|
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
592
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 19:59:00 -
[4] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:
You do have a way to force the pvers to leave, Take the space... They wont be ratting if you take that space
i'd agree that putting assets in a system should give a defender a home advantage, and they already do.
but they are invulnerable to anything but a full scale attack. that doesn't sound like the attacking of supply lines we were talking about before. in fact there is no way to attack behind enemy lines, there are only blob sized assaults and the grind of POS bashing. add that to the fact that ratting systems are well behind the frontlines and reinforcement timers give them plenty of time to GTFO, there is little chance the PvE'ers will be cornered so quickly they might have to defend themselves and actually lose something.
i also believe cloaking should not be undetectable, it just shouldn't be blatantly obvious when they are around (for one, they are cloaked). personally i mixture of nerfing local and cloaks together is my desired outcome. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
592
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Not just stare at our prey in the goldfish bowl that a POS is so reminiscent of.
ha ha |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
595
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:58:00 -
[6] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:I would Even go far enough to say...
the mod is 1billion isk a month in sov cost... The upgrade is quite big and 500mill
You can only have 2 of them per region AND You cant have a cyno beacon or Jump Bridge anchored in the same system as the cloak jammer.
So now, you forcing people to hand light cynos AND They have to use the stargate to get there...
If that isnt enough to give up then i really have no idea what to tell you
the only way to balance this kind of idea would be to make it so expensive it would be impractical to use, at which point, why have it at all? as long as it can be used to make a system rattable AND unassailable thanks to local, it will be like giving free isk to PvE players.
and as mentioned before, it would not stop afk inties. someone would have to come up with a POS module that increases scanning strength and time. then the afk'ers find a new way, so a new POS module would have to be made. and it all just becomes an escalation.
tackle the root cause, tackle the problem. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
595
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:The difference with the Forever MWD Inty/Thrasher with a hard to scan down setup is.. You can just point your D-Scan towards them and watch.
But atleast you have the ability To scan them down/watch them on D-scan... And you know if they are active because they will start looking for something to gank vs the system we have now where you can cloaky camp without even being at the computer
Also honestly 1b a month for the mod isnt that bad for 0.0 alliances
And with the changes to no JB or Cyno beacon, you can cloaky the fk out of the systems around it to your hearts content and **** all the ratters moving to and fro
1bil a month is pennies. i was thinking one tril a day...then it might get used as much as it should...never.
ur trying to add risk to cloaking, but i dnt see anything that adds risk to PvE'ing in null sec. justifying riskless PvE with an upkeep cost and the possibilities of cyno's (which is pointless when the target ship is POS'd anyways) does nothing to solve the issue.
why should u be able to avoid PvP indefinitely when ur in null? its freaking null sec! |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
597
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:35:00 -
[8] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:so your saying the only way to kill people in 0.0 is cloaky?
No
umm, no.
u cant kill much of anything in a cloaky. everyone sees u coming and cloaky ships are gimped by default.
1)kills generally come from blobs or consensual PvP. the PvE ratter is voided from both. so what we have is someone who can avoid PvP 100% of the time but gets the highest rewards of null-sec. that is broken.
2)to counter that, some ppl have come up with afk cloaking in the enemy ratting systems to use the ratter's own PvP aversion against them. this is also broken. but at least they are balanced.
i'm now starting to repeat myself and it appears to me u are another null bear who feels entitled to ratting in null without any chance of being caught. for that all ur going to get from now will likely be:
'if u dnt like afk cloakers, goto WH space or hi-sec. No AFK cloakers there'
or
'stop crying null bear, its ur own cowardice that prevents u from ratting'
and for the most part, both statements are true. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
598
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
if ur PvP capable why dnt u draw the cloaker out and shoot him?
are u so alone u have no friends that can back u up as well? arent u in an alliance or something? |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
600
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 23:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
ur alliance doesn't have 40-50 ppl to call upon in the event of an attack?
shutting down a group of nullbears is easy yes. and so it should be. the only ones that deserve to be there are the ones that fight back.
to paraphrase another post in this thread,
if u weren't prepared to defend the system in the first place, then it was never really urs. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
613
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 16:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fluffy Sheep wrote:a one-sided argument
and so what if if someone puts up a POS for u and then fuels it for u to hide in. every single cloaker has to train up and buy every cloak individually.
ur not going to make cloakers vulnerable unless u make PvE'res also vulnerable. the fact u think that its reasonable to allow riskless PvE in the most dangerous parts of space is absolutely staggering. u have no perception of risk vs reward at all. at least if PvE'res were made vulnerable, most cloakers would accept a way to detect and locate cloaked ships. u simply just want to have ur cake and eat it.
go back to hi-sec. no afk cloakers there. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
616
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 01:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:
You guys act like cloaks are the only way to do anything in 0.0...
cloaking is the best way to prevent alliances from making as much isk. its emergent gameplay to turn local against the PvP averse. Blobs get u so far, and then u meet the other blob. long before u get near any ratting systems...as if attacking ratters was justification enough to gather the resources for a blob...why not just send and AFK cloaky alt.
u have a problem with ppl not being at their keyboard affecting gameplay. i have a problem with ratters making billions of isk without any risk in a game that claims Risk Vs. Reward as one of its fundamental rules of gameplay.
Yes, something has definitely gone awry.
No, the solution does not lie with nerfing cloaking alone.
No, an AFK cloaker does not affect gameplay anymore than someone who is docked or POS'd AFK.
No, u cannot have ur hostile free systems in null sec. Its null sec, if u cannot protect urself from other players, u dnt belong there.
ur just a null bear who wants at least two systems he can rat in without any possible interruptions, so u can make billions and billions of isk and never lose a thing. accept that u are risk averse, u do not belong in null sec. come back to hi-sec, no afk cloakers to cry about there. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
620
|
Posted - 2013.02.08 12:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:again, the only response you have is i must be a bear.... No not at all. I rat a few hours a month at most and most of the time its running a plex and not sanctum ratting.
again you still think, that the only way to stop people from making billions of isk is cloakies.. and im telling you thats not true... Go camp them into a station with a fleet... put up gate camps between systems.. Put up small bubbled and bomb the **** out of people like pizza have been doing.
But no you wont even think about doing any of the 9000 ways to kill people beside cloakys. its just gotta be a cloakies because all of these ways somehow involve other people comming to kill you and thats what scares you.
its not the amount of time u spend ratting that makes u a bear. its the refusal to accept risks and defend ur stuffs.
no, cloaking is not the only way, it is the BEST way. u can use a fleet to try and attack ratters, but they will flee long before u get there, so it will usually end up in a waste of time and resources. again, what happened to the 'attacking of supply lines' that u were so fond of. traditionally such attacks are implemented by covert teams rather than breaking down the front door with a 200-man fleet.
the blob is good for defences or sieging POS's. disrupting enemy isk making activities SHOULD be doable with covert teams sinking behind enemy lines where patrols are weak. however, because they can always be seen coming, a single afk cloaker is sufficient to scare off the lonely risk averse ratters who cant even prepare a little bait and tackle.
its not perfect, but at least both sides lose fairly. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
627
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 00:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:
I feel in a Region your alliance owns, its your space and as such i think it almost every way you should have the homefield advantage.
So i dont think people comming into an alliances space should be on even ground. Now granted we already have advantages such as cyno beacons and jump bridges.. i will concede this.
But i feel that alliances need an IRON grip over the systems they own and pay for.
u only own the space if u are willing to defend it. arbitrary sov mechanics just allow u to put up banners, nothing more. the Iron grip ur speaking of must be enforced by the players, not game mechanics.
Trespasser wrote:
you believe that both Attacker and defender should be even, sorta like it is now.. its a stalemate.
nope. i understand the home advantage provided by cyno jammers and nearby POS's and outposts with equipment available. the attackers have none of these.
Trespasser wrote:
I do believe its fair for a system or 2 in a region have the ability to be cloak jammed as long as the alliance is willing to pay a good amount for it and they have a trade off for something.. in this case they are trading off the ability to cyno jam the system and the ability to have a JB and/or cyno beacon in the system. along with a good amount of isk per month.. this is all for the ability to stop cloaks.. Nothing else. Its not stopping a 50 man fleet from camping the system its not stoping people from camping the ways in and out, all it does is stop people from cloaking.
it allows ratters to block the one way to attack their income, this is not fair at all. where u say we're crying about not being able to cloak everywhere. i'd say ur crying about not having a 100% safe system where u can rat without interruption or risk. this is a ridiculous attitude for someone who wants to live in null sec. u must accept the risks with ur rewards.
Trespasser wrote:
The mod would be put outside the shields just like a cyno jammer and can be incapped if someone really wanted to do it.
so? the module still does not add any risk to the ratters, and thats the only way its going to be accepted. If at the same time the cloaker is revealed, all ships at any POS or in station get ejected and auto-warp to the systems star, then we might be making some headway..
|
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket
Swamp Bucket Empire
629
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 10:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
Trespasser wrote:You said the one and only way to attack ratters income is to cloaky camp them...
so im going to ask you why cant you take a 20man gang and just camp the system and force them to stop ratting.. why do you focus on the cloakies being the only way to stop ratters
i said: afk cloaking IS how u attack supply lines.
AFK cloaking is how u slip behind enemy lines and disrupt enemy resource flow. a 20-man fleet, although relatively small, would be immediately obvious to the defending alliance the moment they appear in local in one of the frontline systems, let alone the ratters systems which are way back where no one can touch them. Even if the 20-man fleet wasn't stopped by the blob before it reached the ratting systems, the ratters would STILL see them once they entered local (if they weren't already told by other members of the alliance that they were coming) and the ratters would still dock up, and there would still be no PvP.
a 20 man fleet is in no way going to siege the POS or the outpost, it would take days, so all they could do was sit in system like an afk cloaker. If the 20-man fleet didnt have cloaks, they'd eventually be probed and blobbed or forced to leave before something like that happened. so the ratters STILL have absolutely no risk at all and once the pointless episode is over, they can go back to grinding big fat loads of isk without having risked a hair on their precious heads.
OR
u can get a cov-ops with a cloak, slip in easily thanks to ur alliances laziness to chase down a single guy. get to the ratters system pretty easily and make them dock up the moment u enter local. then u cloak up, and make sure everyone loses. its the same result for about as much effort it takes to watch local. pretty fair tbh.
because ratters can easily evade any and all PvP, it should be easy for AFK cloakers to reach their systems. and because AFK cloakers can always watch a cloaker in local indefinitely and no exactly when he is gone, and it is safe; the afk cloaker must be able to remain indefinitely. |
| |
|